tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22001031.post7902305668492034415..comments2024-02-28T18:29:41.120-08:00Comments on Not of General Interest: Watch one, do one, teach oneundinehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05589384016564587214noreply@blogger.comBlogger7125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22001031.post-11959318049581322842012-08-18T13:21:02.829-07:002012-08-18T13:21:02.829-07:00Bavardess, I'm guessing that at some level it ...Bavardess, I'm guessing that at some level it does help. There's a principle that says "what gets measured gets attended to" or something like that, and if there's a penalty for doing something wrong (or additional points added for doing something right), students, being rational creatures, will work a little harder at it, I think.<br /><br />Z--drawing from actual papers is the best. I was taught to do what you suggest--choose neither the best nor the worst and always suggest that the papers have strengths as well as weaknesses. undinehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05589384016564587214noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22001031.post-55961262748440508272012-08-14T15:08:38.098-07:002012-08-14T15:08:38.098-07:00I have found that drawing examples from their work...I have found that drawing examples from their work does not help, but having the class study some specific papers, does. That of course means that those whose paper they are have to tolerate this, and you who run the class have to be polite about the papers. "I have chosen these five papers to focus on because each has a strength and a weakness that arise in multiple papers," etc. Zhttp://profacero.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22001031.post-79104401524778823102012-08-12T14:19:00.967-07:002012-08-12T14:19:00.967-07:00I've been thinking about this issue ( partly b...I've been thinking about this issue ( partly because I'm about to be inundated with 40-odd 2500- word history essays to mark) and I wonder how much difference incentives make in helping students learn skills they may perceive as unimportant or nit-picky. Does it help people get the message if the lose marks for too many spelling/grammar errors? (It is standard policy in the School I work in to include this as part of the marking rubric.) Or conversely, would it be effective if students knew they could earn some extra marks for doing well in this area? If I run across the same type of error repeatedly in student papers, I will give them a short classroom lesson on the rule and why it matters to making their ideas clear and ensuring they're not being misunderstood etc.Bavardesshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10737120234578385755noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22001031.post-7392235640457816152012-08-12T12:03:11.451-07:002012-08-12T12:03:11.451-07:00Sisyphus, I've seen that research on grammar d...Sisyphus, I've seen that research on grammar drills, but I'm hoping that showing them examples drawn from their own papers will help them.<br /><br />Bardiac, I agree about emphasizing ideas, but if I can't tell what they're saying because their sentences are so poor, that's where I have to start with them. I use the (probably unfashionable) Orwell analogy of writing as a pane of glass: if I can't see through it to your ideas, how can I know what you're trying to say? I do want to try different things, as you do, and am thinking about a post on this, but when I have actually seen student writing improve over the course of a semester with explanations, etc., it's hard to accept that nothing I'm doing makes any difference in terms of how they write. <br /><br />I'm not surprised that the checkmark in the margin "minimal marking" thing didn't have any effect; that was my conclusion decades ago after hearing research that it was the One Best Way and trying it. <br /><br />Clio, your example sums it up exactly. They don't know, and they're not going to look it up, so why on earth can't we teach it in an interesting way?undinehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05589384016564587214noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22001031.post-69307728269991577622012-08-12T06:45:04.786-07:002012-08-12T06:45:04.786-07:00Bardiac, perhaps the difference is also that circl...Bardiac, perhaps the difference is also that circling "it's" teaches them nothing about the reasons that "it's" is not a possessive. I once showed a class the difference between singular possessive, plural, and plural possessive. They told me, "really? We never knew that there was a difference. That's good to know." They had just randomly placed apostrophes and "s"es without rhyme or reason because they knew they should, but a teacher marking it as wrong seemed to them just as random as their use. Plus, they sure as heck weren't going to look up the grammar rule. Of course, that doesn't solve the problem in which I have to use my time to teach them history, not the elements of grammar.Clio Bluestockinghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14285486658334618048noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22001031.post-589162864647713982012-08-12T06:31:12.067-07:002012-08-12T06:31:12.067-07:00I think they're also after the difference betw...I think they're also after the difference between circling "it's" used as a possessive and talking to students about their ideas or commenting on the ideas. It's a matter of where you put your energy and what effects your work has.Bardiachttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11846065504793800266noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22001031.post-64881857266926376562012-08-11T16:49:45.362-07:002012-08-11T16:49:45.362-07:00I haven't read the research originals, and lik...I haven't read the research originals, and like you I am dubious and want to look into it more deeply, but the way I have had the experiments summarized to me is that students who do grammar drills/sentence exercises and pass those exercises are still unable to write their own sentences or edit their own sentences without making the same mistakes.Sisyphushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09880634753539329199noreply@blogger.com